Make Lying Un-American.... Again?

[deacon blues]

I've been reflecting on political scene again, and came up with a prospective political credo. "Make Lying Un-American Again." But when I break it down it is discouraging.
"Again" is unrealistic- when was lying ever Un-american? Am I being too negative?
"Lying" is.... realistic? Can we survive, let alone compete in this world if complete, flawless honesty is our standard. Most of you would recognize that even the LDS Church found such a standard unsustainable. Apparently, even their God would agree. We can blame them for that, but.... I for one can't condemn them. I lie myself, even when trying to avoid it.
"American/Un-American" is a varied, even contrasting of number of ideals. What makes American and her people great? Can we agree on even one thing?
this turned out more negative than I intended. I'll just say, "Take care of yourselves out there, and try to find room to love others, even if its just some others.

[wtfluff]

Which part of "America" are we talking about here?

Argentina?

Venezuela?

Greenland?

[nibbler]

The challenge is that people can't tell truth from fiction. I think it's more obvious and in your face these days but people have always had that problem.

No doubt there are bad actors that intentionally lie. Then you have misinformed people that lie unintentionally. Then there's the people with pathologies that say whatever they need to believe to soothe their egos.

People also consider their information sources as golden but all their sources are really doing is selling their own opinions back to them.

The challenge is that both red and blue camps believe it's the other side that's lying.

I think with marketing they always try to go for positive messaging. That's how a plan to burn the country to ashes gets repackaged as "Make America Great Again."

[Just This Guy]

The challenge is that both red and blue camps believe it's the other side that's lying.

I think herein lies the biggest problem. Each side lies and lies a LOT. Bill Clinton claimed he did not have sexual relations with that woman. G. W. Bush claimed that there were large amount of WMDs in Iraq. Obama said that you can keep your health care plan if you like it. Trump said he would make Mexico pay for the Wall. Biden lied about his family business dealings. They all do it. But each party only want's to acknowledge the lies the other side says. No one wants to admit to their own issues.

In the end, I think the problem is the current 2 party system is fundamentally broken. For both sides, their #1 goal is gaining and holding on to power. They want more and more money for themselves and their political machine and will do anything they feel they need to to make it happen. The other party is a convenient target to push their tribalism. The more us-vs-them they can push, the more they can push the fear the other guy and therefore the more money cay can collect. Nowhere in their playbook do they actually care about the people they are representing. Only how much money they can get from them. If you think about it, the current system is setup to encourage them to lie. If the lie bring in more money, then all the better.

A lot of the current system just comes down to who can raise the most money will win a given seat. So to bring honesty back to the US, we need a way to completely change the political process. What that is? I don't know. Maybe campaign finance reform including maximum $$ that a person may spend on a campaign. Maybe a ban on all campaign financing and all candidates will be given the same amount from the government, no more allowed. I welcome better ideas.

But right now, the system is not setup to hold people accountable for their lies, but actively encourage them.

[Hagoth]

Just a reminder, this discussion should be in the Coffee Shop.

Just a couple of quick responses, but then we should probably pick it up over there, if we want to keep the discussion political.

1) My motto is Make America Good Again

2) Enjoy the days when you can even begin to tell the difference between actual evidence and made up slop. I like watching videos of robots, for whatever reason. The other day I searched YouTube for "humanoid robot" and about 90% of the results were AI-created slop. Not just AI images, but they seemed to be written, narrated, and animated with little or no human intervention. I have seen similar things that pretend to be actual senate hearings, legal trials, etc. with high level politicians, or even talk show altercations, but they are entirely fictional and AI generated. This stuff is already influencing a lot of Americans, even though it is randomly generated in China or Russia, or just people fishing for clicks, and usually not too hard to spot (for now). For example, without a solid background in archaeology how are you supposed to determine which amazing new archaeological discoveries on YouTube aren't just made up clickbait? I expect that in a year of two the internet could be so deeply imbued with this crap that it might be practically useless for learning anything factual. I hope I'm wrong. How long till we see how to videos that will have you blowing up your water heater or ruining your car engine because they are AI generated nonsense?

[deacon blues]

Sorry to post this in the wrong category. Feel free to move it. Make America Good Again is a better motto. Maybe a purple hat- purple being red and blue combined would be an appropriate color. Just This Guy and Nibbler analyze the problems very well too. Thanks.

[Angel]

As a teacher in the age of AI, I am trying a couple of things:

• Multiple attempts on exams

thinking if there is less incentive to cheat, less pressure, second, third, fourth etc. chances to get through it honestly ...???

• sharing what job interviews look like

Employers know not to trust GPA's any more, can't trust resume's. I tell students - suppose you wrote down that you know how to play the piano. Interview might look something like: here's some sheet music, let me see you play it.... or let's say you wrote down you know CAD software... here's a sketch, let's see you create it in CAD.... Threaten students it's obvious - anyone can quickly see who knows what they are doing or not.

My DH complains, their new hires aren't competent... we both feel old, kids these days...

[alas]

I don’t know that this is in the wrong forum, because to my eyes, it applies to the church just a little too much. Do I need to put up examples of the lying from the church in recent years, let alone all the way back to con man Joseph Smith? Or what about other denominations who also engage in sexual abuse coverups and who endorse specific candidates in violation of the law? If America’s religions are not held to some standard of truth and honesty and abiding by the laws of the land, why would politicians. Maybe we need to start with judges who agree with that just defeated lawsuit, that the church claiming no tithing money goes into building malls and them goes right ahead and uses tithing money for building malls really is fraud. But, gee, legally churches can say or do any blasted thing they want and we can’t hold them accountable because oh gee, organized “religion” is more sacred than honesty, or any of the values religions should exemplify. Just like we complain about how the Mormon church cares more about the church corporation than it does the members, it also cares more about the corporation that it does the principles it teaches.

[Hagoth]

It seems like, at the very least, churches and all other nonprofits should be required to have 100% transparency if they are not required to pay taxes. If they choose to be secretive, they are welcome to keep it to themselves and pay taxes. The entire idea of churches and the law appears to be built on a foundation of dishonesty.

[deacon blues]

Leaders from Joseph Smith to Dallin Oaks: "Thou shalt not bear false witness, unless it builds the "kingdom" or hides the sins of the Lord's "anointed."

[alas]

It seems like, at the very least, churches and all other nonprofits should be required to have 100% transparency if they are not required to pay taxes. If they choose to be secretive, they are welcome to keep it to themselves and pay taxes. The entire idea of churches and the law appears to be built on a foundation of dishonesty.

A lot of other countries demand this transparency and some even demand proof that donations are used for charity. Money coming in from countries from tithing that have these laws is why BYU is now cheaper than state universities instead of much more expensive as it was when I was planning on going there. Lot has changed in the funding of BYU since England, Canada, and Australia passed these laws. BYU just has to stay open for students from these countries for the massive amount of money to go to BYU as a qualifying charity.

[alas]

It seems like, at the very least, churches and all other nonprofits should be required to have 100% transparency if they are not required to pay taxes. If they choose to be secretive, they are welcome to keep it to themselves and pay taxes. The entire idea of churches and the law appears to be built on a foundation of dishonesty.

A lot of other countries demand this transparency and some even demand proof that donations are used for charity. Money coming in from countries from tithing that have these laws is why BYU is now cheaper than state universities instead of much more expensive as it was when I was planning on going there. Lot has changed in the funding of BYU since England, Canada, and Australia passed these laws. BYU just has to stay open for students from these countries for the massive amount of money to go to BYU as a qualifying charity.

Ps, I think that is as crooked as Logan Canyon.